Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby stabone » Aug 1. 2013, 20:06

Totally and utterly biased video. I'm not even a fan of Wing Chun and can see that. Above posters already mentioned what needed to be said so need to be redundant.

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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby AIDS » Aug 1. 2013, 20:30

bazzereth wrote: - I just watched through most of that and realized that the creator of the video just went and found the most useless excuses of wing chun on the internet and made a compilation video. .... I can see that most of those wing chun guys had no business competing. If you put any half decent wing chunner against a nooby boxer, karate, jiujitsu, wrestler or whoever, you will have the same warped result. It was just an all round biased video.


Sure it's possible to make biased videos making some martial art look bad.

However, it still says a lot that the majority concerning Wing Chun make it look bad. Firstly, Wing Chun competitors in MMA are a rarity. Second, they - more often than not - got their ass beat.

You could try make a video showing BJJ guys losing, but that could be countered with examples of their stellar success. Not so for Wing Chun.

This is always an argument trotted out to defend traditional martial arts. The people practising and testing their arts publicly are never the "good" ones. The "real" masters are always invisible, somewhere, only heard-of, over the next mountain, hiding in a secret valley in China somewhere.

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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby dmwalking » Aug 1. 2013, 20:46

It depends on what you define as a traditional martial art. If you define it as eastern martial arts, then sure they're been rendered irrelevant as stand alone arts.

But I define martial arts as any sort of un armed combat. Muay Thai and Muay Boran are traditional martial arts that are very effective. San Shou is also. Greco Roman and freestyle. Even Western Boxing.

All traditional arts aren't obsolete. We've just seen which are the most effective. Even more than that, we've seen proof that it's most effective when one is capable in all aspects.
Royce showed the need for a ground game. Severn showed the importance of strong wrestling and top control. Maurice Smith showed the importance of take down defense and striking. Frank Shamrock showed the importance of cross training and cardio.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby Rex Fortune » Aug 1. 2013, 20:48

I always read online how "true" wing chung is unstoppable. But most every video of it in practical use, ie a fight, the fighter with Wing Chun ends up getting KO'd. So maybe somwhere the is a storage unit of videos of Wing Chung fighters KO'd every big name fighter. In that unit would also be Frank Duke's acheivements...

Hell, Jimmy Smith, the commentator from Bellator tried his hand at Wing Chung, and in a week of training ended up doing rather well in a match. Even though he used more boxing than actual wing chung.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby JustJunMC » Aug 1. 2013, 21:07

I think Bruce Lee was on the right track by mixing martial arts

Wing Chun is a good art but it's an even better fighting art when combined with others

Even Carlson Gracie agrees and he used to work with a wing chun sifu for his seminars where he would combine BJJ with Wing Chun

Even the good wing chun guys adjust the art for modern times, they do not do it the traditional way

Having said that there's some great Kung Fu moves and great moves in all arts to use with other arts

For example Judo or wrestling is good to add with BJJ because BJJ got good ground stuff but they are not great at takedowns or throws

For good stand up wing chun can be combined with taekwondo and some muay thai
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby mmashare-one » Aug 1. 2013, 21:12

Let me give you guys a new perspective about this kind of issue...if the traditional martial arts completely useless ?

Please please pay attention to what I say, not to MDF who always seems to say something weird. :mrgreen:

Martial arts has its most usefulness in training one's mind and body as its most priority.
Next, martial arts is originally designed for "weak" ones to become stronger, not for the already stronger one to become more stronger. It means that if you got beaten up by your next door bully, and you want to beat this bully, then you could learn martial arts, (traditional martial arts) and it helped.

But, if the bully ( already strong one ) learns the martial arts , too ? then no one can predict what's gonna happen. There are so many different factors that can affect two highly trained fighters for winning.

Now, think about how traditional martial arts were beneficial to the people who learned them, At the time back then when they were useful.

It was not for UFC. It was not for the competition to find who is the strongest. ( imagine no internet, no TV, no radio ) Mostly martial arts have been used against ordinary thugs in the neighbor.

This scenario puts you ( who learned the traditional martial arts ) in the unique situation.

You .vs. many several who didn't learn any martial arts. Yep. it is one against many. This is where the traditional martial arts really helped those who mastered martial arts. ( I have seen how TKD or Kungfu was used in the street by one against many in Korea long time ago. ) Traditional martial arts were rarely used or encouraged for the fight between highest leveled single fighter vs another. This is a fairly new concept.

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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby AIDS » Aug 1. 2013, 21:27

dmwalking wrote:It depends on what you define as a traditional martial art. If you define it as eastern martial arts, then sure they're been rendered irrelevant as stand alone arts.

But I define martial arts as any sort of un armed combat. Muay Thai and Muay Boran are traditional martial arts that are very effective. San Shou is also. Greco Roman and freestyle. Even Western Boxing.

All traditional arts aren't obsolete. We've just seen which are the most effective. Even more than that, we've seen proof that it's most effective when one is capable in all aspects.


I think it's a mistake now even to talk about a single, monolithic martial-art as being "effective" or "relevant".

Martial Arts are tool-sets. Some of those tools are useless, some have specific applications, the effectiveness of some are unknown and some are good.

I don't think many traditional martial arts are 100% irrelevant and ineffective - most just have a higher number of impractical, un-tested techniques.

The beauty of MMA is that it is something like a scientific method for testing the tools that different martial arts offer.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby Mr. Creosote » Aug 1. 2013, 22:05

dmwalking wrote:It depends on what you define as a traditional martial art. .


This. The OP never intended this to be a slam of win chun, rather an illustrative example of what he considered a "traditional martial art" which he didn't really define.

For the sake of argument, let's consider a traditional martial art one that is a "mono-culture", one that has developed by and large on it's own with it's own set of rules and constraints and very little in terms of evolution. This latter part is, for me, what exemplifies a "traditional martial art": that it's evolved very little and has held true to a structure and/or dogma. By this definition, everything from professional boxing to pencak silat, and even BJJ, could be considered traditional.

MMA, particularly as exemplified by early UFC, was the evolutionary ground for these monoculture arts to perform. By and large, BJJ won because most of the other arts had no methods of dealing with ground fighting. Even wrestlers in the early UFC struggled because while they could take people down with impunity, by and large they had few finishing techniques because of the mono culture in which they had developed. Most of the techniques of catch wrestling had been lost, for example, from traditional wrestling. That changed quickly once the role of the dominant position could be exploited with ground and pound. As the techniques of BJJ and the role of ground fighting in general became familiar, fighters evolved to incorporate their methods and counters. The evolutionary pressures of MMA also changed, rounds were introduced, stand-ups were introduced, all of which altered the environment in which an individual art was placed at more or less advantage. But still the requirement of adaptability is imposed to some extent: the need to strike effectively on grappling arts and the need to grapple for striking arts.

Unfortunately the OP is asking a question in the absence of constraints: "Do you believe that there is a complete fighting style to rely upon?". Relied upon to do what? The evolutionary example of MMA as a relatively complete fighting art is not something that can be ignored. Would techniques like eye gouging, head butts, nut shots make a difference? The techniques that "are too dangerous to be used" etc. etc. Early UFC would say no. A skilled grappler will generally win because few traditional arts provide techniques to get the fight standing again once it's on the ground. Can your rely on grappling/BJJ all the time? Not if the guy you're fighting has a buddy who'll punt your head into next week while you're happily slapping on that arm bar. Do traditional martial arts still offer techniques that are useful. I'd say yes to that, but as monoculture systems, I'd say their use is limited. Some seem to be more useful than others: Muay Thai, wrestling, boxing, BJJ, probably more for the number of techniques they have that work consistently than by any particular virtue of their particular systems.

The unfortunate fall out of popularizing martial arts by guys like Bruce Lee has been their transformation to a commodity. This means that most systems have a gain in holding themselves out as the best even in the absence of evidence which can be popularized by the movies or media. This meant the proliferation of spectacular (and sellable) techniques for the one armed attacker that exemplified a lot of systems, particularly ones that had no combative testing grounds. Fortunately MMA has provided an evolutionary pressure and evidence that can't be ignored. It will be interesting to see what evolves next.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby AIDS » Aug 1. 2013, 22:33

Mr. Creosote wrote:For the sake of argument, let's consider a traditional martial art one that is a "mono-culture", one that has developed by and large on it's own with it's own set of rules and constraints and very little in terms of evolution. This latter part is, for me, what exemplifies a "traditional martial art": that it's evolved very little and has held true to a structure and/or dogma. By this definition, everything from professional boxing to pencak silat, and even BJJ, could be considered traditional.


No - I think by your definition BJJ would not be considered a "traditional" martial art.

The first generation of BJJ practitioners were modifying and adapting Judo. The second incorporated techniques from and competed in Sambo, Judo and free-style wrestling. The next generations went into MMA and competed in non-grappling-only rule systems.

Each generation of BJJ has competed against and incorporated other styles and evolved as a result.

BJJ is not a traditional martial art by your definition.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby ELD » Aug 1. 2013, 22:51

The only thing I'll say in defense of traditional martial arts is this: MMA is not fighting, and there are tons of rules. MMA is a relatively safe way to have fighting be a sport. It's awesome, and I enjoy training and watching it. That said, it's not the same thing as fighting. There are SOOOO many things that are illegal in MMA, and they're mostly things that are too dangerous to allow people to do. Strikes to the collar bone, back of the head, heels to the kidney from guard, the list goes on and on.

Traditional martial arts have to evolve. Once you think you have all the answers, and stop evolving to find those answers, you're obsolete.

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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby mmashare-one » Aug 1. 2013, 23:08

ELD wrote:The only thing I'll say in defense of traditional martial arts is this: MMA is not fighting, and there are tons of rules. MMA is a relatively safe way to have fighting be a sport. It's awesome, and I enjoy training and watching it. That said, it's not the same thing as fighting. There are SOOOO many things that are illegal in MMA, and they're mostly things that are too dangerous to allow people to do. Strikes to the collar bone, back of the head, heels to the kidney from guard, the list goes on and on.

Traditional martial arts have to evolve. Once you think you have all the answers, and stop evolving to find those answers, you're obsolete.


And one of the secret trainings in some sect in Kungfu is something called "Chul-sa-jang".( known to Koreans) I don't know the original Chinese words. It is hardening technique of the finger tips. It starts with a large jar full of sands. trainee jabs his open palm with fingers put together and inserting the finger tips first. As the training gets progressed half of the sands changed with metal beads. etc. When the trainees successfully finishes this training, their finger tips become so hardened, they can jab their opponent in their belly and the finger tips slide through the skin as if it is a knife.

Well, there is an exaggeration, but you know the concept. ( Also, there is a scene in Bruce lee's movie in which he does this.)
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby AIDS » Aug 1. 2013, 23:56

ELD wrote:The only thing I'll say in defense of traditional martial arts is this: MMA is not fighting, and there are tons of rules. MMA is a relatively safe way to have fighting be a sport. It's awesome, and I enjoy training and watching it. That said, it's not the same thing as fighting. There are SOOOO many things that are illegal in MMA, and they're mostly things that are too dangerous to allow people to do. Strikes to the collar bone, back of the head, heels to the kidney from guard, the list goes on and on.

Traditional martial arts have to evolve. Once you think you have all the answers, and stop evolving to find those answers, you're obsolete.


Quite an odd list of "OMG too dangerous for MMA" techniques.

Collar bone breaks are not exactly life-threatening. Heck - babies get them when they're born. And is it really a foul to strike the collar bone? I think you might be thinking of "grabbing" the collar bone.

Punches to the back of the head. OK - I think we have seen uh....1 KO from those? They used to happen quite a bit in the old days of MMA - you can even see them being used against Gracies in their old challenge matches. They weren't really that effective.
Kind of a lot to hang the hopes of TMAs on.

Heels to kidneys was allowed in early MMA. BJ Penn used them. They've been used, and I think it turned out they didn't really do much - not even sure why they were banned.
Again - it's quite meagre to go from that to some kind of defence of TMAs generally.

Either way - this line of defence is spurious.

To look at two elite strikers/grapplers boxing, kicking, wrastling and jitsuing in a cage and say "no that's not fighting" and instead point to some hypothetical, untested scenarios ( where you think d*ck-punching is going to legitimize hundreds of years of monkey-claw prancing about) as REAL fighting....no.

I mean it's difficult to get through all the ways in which this line of reasoning is misguided.

Here are a few:

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, you are also not practicing them in a live/competitive situation.

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, this doesn't save your martial art from critique if you are not practising the rest of your techniques in a live/competitive format with a minimal rule set versus practitioners of other styles (ie: MMA).

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, if it is relying on that fact to legitimize itself, then it is probably a useless style. If you need to pull hair and punch dicks in order for the rest of your system of punches and kicks and blocks to be deemed "effective" - then your "art" is shit.

- No one is really practising "real" fighting.

- Anderson Silva will still kick the shit out of the best d*ck-punching, hair-grabbing, eye-gouging TMA specialist out there.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby ELD » Aug 2. 2013, 00:27

Quite an odd list of "OMG too dangerous for MMA" techniques.


Let's be fair, things are actually banned in MMA. It's not like every technique is fair game. You've got to go in there with a substantial amount of control to refrain from using techniques that are banned.

Collar bone breaks are not exactly life-threatening. Heck - babies get them when they're born. And is it really a foul to strike the collar bone? I think you might be thinking of "grabbing" the collar bone.

Punches to the back of the head. OK - I think we have seen uh....1 KO from those? They used to happen quite a bit in the old days of MMA - you can even see them being used against Gracies in their old challenge matches. They weren't really that effective.
Kind of a lot to hang the hopes of TMAs on.

Heels to kidneys was allowed in early MMA. BJ Penn used them. They've been used, and I think it turned out they didn't really do much - not even sure why they were banned.
Again - it's quite meagre to go from that to some kind of defence of TMAs generally.

Either way - this line of defence is spurious.



I'm just saying that TMA's have lots of techniques which would not be legal. Look at the difficulty with extended fingers creating eye-pokes even. Or fighters heads clashing with headbutts. Like, let's not get started on headbutts, because a headbutt from inside a closed guard is devastating, and totally illegal. And then there's all the applications of headbutts from clinches. There are rules about what you're allowed to do, and they are for fighter safety.


To look at two elite strikers/grapplers boxing, kicking, wrastling and jitsuing in a cage and say "no that's not fighting" and instead point to some hypothetical, untested scenarios ( where you think d*ck-punching is going to legitimize hundreds of years of monkey-claw prancing about) as REAL fighting....no.


It's awesome, but it's not fighting. It's a sport. I'm also not saying TMA's are fighting. They tend to be bound by their own rules as well, and are therefore not fighting. The contention here is that the rules of MMA favor MMA practitioners who practice that form, and penalize anyone who loses moves from their arsenal.

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, you are also not practicing them in a live/competitive situation.


Irrelevant to the conversation, and not absolutely true. It is likely true in most cases, but does not have to be. The development of prison based martial arts, for example, had very real testing grounds.

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, this doesn't save your martial art from critique if you are not practising the rest of your techniques in a live/competitive format with a minimal rule set versus practitioners of other styles (ie: MMA).


I'm not saying anyone is above critique.

- Even if your martial art incorporates techniques which are illegal in MMA, if it is relying on that fact to legitimize itself, then it is probably a useless style. If you need to pull hair and punch dicks in order for the rest of your system of punches and kicks and blocks to be deemed "effective" - then your "art" is shit.


To be fair, in MMA, the better athlete is generally winning. It's a sport. There are techniques which can be totally valid for self defense against an attacker, which wouldn't even be useful vs a trained professional athlete. Just as there are MMA techniques that are totally useless in a real fight.
- No one is really practising "real" fighting.


If you say so. Would you also say there are not people who get in lots of fights?

- Anderson Silva will still kick the shit out of the best d*ck-punching, hair-grabbing, eye-gouging TMA specialist out there.


Probably, but there are weight-classes for a reason.
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Re: Wing Chun Vs MMA, Kung Fu, BJJ, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling...

Postby AIDS » Aug 2. 2013, 00:55

ELD wrote:
AIDS wrote:To look at two elite strikers/grapplers boxing, kicking, wrastling and jitsuing in a cage and say "no that's not fighting"


[b]It's awesome, but it's not fighting.


That awkward moment when you have to redefine words to make your point :roll:

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